Clifford Stanley: Let me give you a little bit of just kind of who I am and, you know, where I'm from and all that. First of all, I don't know too much about some of the internal -- I'm learning an awful lot but I don't know a whole lot about some of the internal politics and I haven't really been here that long, as you probably know. I've been here about a month in terms of working. I've been in the city of Philadelphia one week longer than that. Penn came to me and asked me if I would be interested. I was tracking pretty well in my career, as you know, in the Marine Corps. The timing was pretty good in terms of, "Okay, well, I'll look and talk." I liked what I saw. What I liked most was you, which is the reason I came -- the students -- because that is what my focus is. The field I just left, most of the folks are actually between 18 and 22... there's only a handful of folks my age. In the time I've been here, my initial impressions are, you know, I've been focusing on my internal staff. I have a lot of learning, but still trying to get my staff organized right and trying to get people out of being in silos. Silos mean that people are not cross talking, which affects organization, which affects communication ,which affects external relations on campus as well as off campus. I am actually talking to a person, already had one interview for director of external relations... I'm a former director of public affairs, so what you're doing right now is part of what I did for my other institution in one job for a period of two years ... the first initiative is in the area of just cleaning up, because I think the area is trashy. I really do... I feel pretty strongly about that, so it would be what you would call -- it's like a teacher who would have a classroom and in order to be able to teach properly you can't teach calculus when people aren't paying attention, so to speak. So I kind of focused on cleaning up a little bit. But it's a lot more than just cleaning up. It's actually dealing with some psyche issues, the psychology of people who trash, who condone, who focus -- who walk with kind of a selfish attitude. Would they do that at home? Maturity. Discipline. All a part of higher education... and I realize of course that I am talking and not necessarily saying what you may particularly want to hear, but we'll get to that in about two seconds, but I wanted to say what I wanted to say initially and take it from there.
DP: ... To start off, how are you doing in terms of settling into the job? CS: I think I'm doing pretty well, I mean I think I am. I hope somebody would let me know. I guess I'll find out. I'm having a good time. I like the people. I really do, I mean I really like the people. I like the environment. My biggest challenges aren't even at work. They deal with my family. My wife is paraplegic, in a wheelchair, and neither of us have ever lived in Philadelphia. And we left a culture that is very family-oriented in terms of everywhere you go, you know somebody that's there, and someone else knew you, or you knew somebody who knew somebody. It's almost like knowing those strangers. And of course, if you live on a base, which is where we just left, everybody knows you -- thousands, but everybody knows you. You go the store, it's like the Freshgrocer or something like that. You literally take forever to get out of there, because you run into everybody you know. So that's kind of where I just left, and you come into a place where, you know, you're just another one of the people. And so, helping my wife adjust, I know that that's not directly related to -- but I'm not having any problems at work. It's really just making sure that she gets in here okay. This is not a wheelchair friendly area in terms of the actual, you know, West Philadelphia, and so the challenge is there. And you probably need to know that that is an area that I'll be looking at, because it's very personal for me in terms of wheelchair accessibility and being able to get from point A to point B. So my thinking is, I was a little different as a Marine. I mean, I would go places and I'd be looking for access issues, accessibility -- not just for wheelchairs, now, but blind, deaf, you know, whatever, any number of different handicaps or disabilities really. And so that's a primary focus for me. So I spend a big part of my day, a chunk of my day, thinking about issues like that as I approach anything.... but I'm adjusting. I like it. I don't really miss the Marine Corps. I don't. And I'm excited about doing this next part of my life
DP: You're highly experienced in leadership in the military, and people have said that's why you're such an attractive candidate for this job. To what extent has it been a challenge that you haven't had experience in higher education, or, conversely, how does that help you? CS:... Well, first of all, I have had experience in higher education. because I ran the entire Marine Corps, their operations, and I taught at the Naval Academy, you know, so I mean those things certainly help. And then my primary field was infantry in the Marine Corps. My secondary was actually training and education, so everything that I have done for most of my career has been reinforcing my passion. My passion is this, this part. What I'm doing right now is like Nirvana. I mean I have actually arrived... So I mean I feel very comfortable with this. I like differences of -- I like to be someplace where we don't always have to agree, but it's okay not to always agree, and I don't have to dislike you because we don't agree. I mean, those things really turn me on, so it wasn't always that way where I just left. You know, when you disagreed or something like that, sometimes depending on where you worked and who you worked for, that could be a bit of a challenge with that chain of command because it's pretty rigid. Not all places, but some places. So, I mean, I feel like I've been prepared for this, and getting ready for it, so it was a conscious decision to want to come here, and everything I was looking at, even though I hadn't made the decision to transition, everything that I looked at was education. Everything, from the state of Florida to San Francisco to here, to college, to schools, you know, secondary schools, things like that. Everything, everything. I mean, I didn't even look any place else -- I mean, I actually did some other interviews and things as I was talking, but they weren't fits. I didn't like them. I was a finalist for the school system here, as you probably know. It didn't fit. It wasn't the right fit. At this point in my life, I didn't need that kind of political stuff going on in my life for a system with lots of moving parts, with people, unlike you. There are a lot of different things, first of all, with folks with lots of different interests that are not really pulling the same way to make the education chain work. What I do see at Penn and institutions like this is at least the educators are pulling in the right direction. I mean, there may be a lot of diversity of opinion... but you want to be here... there's a whole range of things that just fits. I hope I wasn't talking too long.
DP: There are still vocal groups in West Philadelphia that have been highly critical of Penn. How do you feel about Penn's relationship with and its role in West Philadelphia. CS: Well, I've heard about that, and... before coming here, I heard about some of the strains in the community. That's an area that, first of all, my experience is I've never been just a Marine.... I've always been community-based and community-oriented because I feel that's very strong, you know, I feel that's very important. So I hope to nurture that. I'm aware of strained relations and I've heard the play on the word gentrification -- Penntrification. I mean, I understand what it means and I understand there's a very delicate balance that you try to improve and at the same time not push aside. I understand that any time you have change and progress, there's always a yin and yang so to speak, and there's always going to be somebody that's not going to like it, whatever you're doing. I want to get to know the people, but I know that there's some scar tissue. I mean, I know there's scar tissue. I think, and this theme will be recurring through other questions you're going to ask, trust is very important. Trust. How do you trust people? How do you build trust? That fits for what's happening on this campus, with different groups, or different silos as I referred to earlier, and particularly with the community, I think trust is very important, and there is some evidence that the track records at this spot. I don't point fingers, but I know that I'm used to being referred to as "they," because by "they," as soon as you come in you assume the mantle, you inherit all the baggage that goes along with it. I accept that, understand that, and we just have to kind of work on trust and working with people. I know I'm going to have limitations doing that, especially while I learn, because there's so much I don't know, and this is not a structured environment.... I've already seen it. I mean, I'm working on this dutifully and, you know, being diligent and all of a sudden, out of left field comes something that I have no knowledge of. I'm still learning stuff, and so, you know, one day I'm learning something about Aramark, which I never heard of before, and the next day it's WXPN, and the next day it's something dealing with UCD and, you know, so the pieces are coming together here, and I'm learning about relationships... each piece fits and I'm learning different things, so I think it's very important, choosing what boards to be on. I think it's most important I go back to my first statement of picking the right team, building the team the right way, because although I could probably come here and bring my team with me, do this, set this up, that would be a mistake because I would build distrust, and [people would] be saying, "This guy has got his own agenda." You know, so... I've got to take a little time to do it, got to try to build a little teamwork. At the same time, I know where I've got to get to... I know where I want to go. The issue now is having some expertise to try to get there. Really, my fundamental purpose right now is to get the silos closed down, build teamwork....
DP: What are your ideas for the future of Penn's real estate ventures? CS: ...The capital plan and all that is really all new to me. My biggest concern right now is making sure that we have the money to do what we say we want to do, and also, although I don't know the big picture yet and I don't want to get in trouble saying this, but there's a balance between retail and academe in our priorities. I don't know what the answer is as far as this is right now, because every one of these facilities, or a lot of these facilities, I'm looking for money to reinforce academia. At the same time, you're not gonna have that happen if you don't... I guess the point I'm trying to make is this: Academia has some things they need. I can't get the students here, we can't get the students here, I know that, if the area's unsafe, it's not clean, crime -- things like that, which is the reason for the transportation comments and things like that. It's a balance. It's a way of going about doing it. There's some scar tissue that's already been built up. How do we proceed from here? I just left the capital planning meeting this morning... do we have the money to do what we should be doing? How do we share what we're doing right now, i.e. do we want to buy the Post Office, do we not want to buy the Post Office? WXPN, do we want to expand close to the Schuylkill, or should we be fixing leaky buildings and doors that don't work, and elevators that aren't safe? Should we be fixing, as I alluded to already, handicapped or disabled access? There is a balance there that begins with student access, faculty, staff, administration access... and I don't know what the balance is yet. I'm pretty dangerous right now. You know when you first learn karate, and you learn the first couple of lessons, and you can just kick... well, that's kind of where I am right now. I don't know what the answer is, except that I'm learning. I really want to know who to trust, because, again, I know now, trust is really important, so not only do I want to be trusted, I also need to learn with people who know how to trust. In my background, integrity is really important. I don't mean I'm a saint. What I mean is, you know, I try to be good and just and fair, you know, those kind of things, and respecting people, and all those things, embracing that integrity. That factors into the equation of your question and every other question.
DP: Could talk a little bit about your plans for the 40th Street corridor now that the movie theater is there? CS: Don't know! I actually don't know. I mean, I just learned where 40th Street is... I mean, I almost kind of spazzed out when they were talking about the roll-out for the theater opened up. I was there... but it was just a couple days before that that I was getting sort of antsy, because they said there were a lot of folks who didn't know how the roll-out was going to go, and in fact we had our meeting up there. I'm concerned about the real estate up there and whether or not we're going to have any retail out there to kind of make this thing really viable. I'm hoping it will. I'm waiting for the brief and the plans that are going to tell me it's really going to be like they say it's going to be. Right now, it looks like the first weekend -- and I don't know what the bottom line on the profits happened to be -- but I understand that they did very well, and that... they were sold out. But you know better than I do.... But I honestly don't know at this point, and I am not playing games with you. I honestly don't know, and to be hones with you, it's probably going to be a few more months before I... at least have some idea of how I want to do this.
DP: When Penn looks for retail and stores to bring in to fill the vacancies it has what kind of stores do you think that the University should be interested in looking at? Just stores for students, or stores that cater to different tastes, or some broad mix? CS: My primary focus would be you. I realize it has to be broader than that, but that's -- I would start with you. I mean, literally, I would try to find out the things you need. I mean, the very first thing I saw even when you were talking about the dining facilities, you know, eating, the meal plan, and all of that. People make decisions not to use the meal plans for a lot of different reasons, and you know what those reasons are. They could be the food's not palatable, it's inconvenient, it could be any number of things. How do I attract that market? How do I make this place seem just like the place you want to go to? How do I make this place seem just like the little stand that's over there that you want to go to on the side, and it's just a place where you like to hang out or whatever. I mean, that would be my primary focus, and then, honestly, I might want to have a little mixture of some things that would be a little bit more upscale for people to come into. Some stores, and things like that. I've already seen things I'd like to see now. I don't want to build a strategy on what my initial impression is... but from a cleaners, literally, looking for a cleaners and shoe repair shops and barber shops and things like that. I'm not saying that those are the things that -- but there's a lifeblood of any kind of community that those things are viable. I mean, when you start talking about how you live -- I mean, I've been looking for the right kind of cleaners, and where's the shoe repair place here, and you know, where is -- you know, really, I mean, so there's different things that should be in a community that I'm seeing some big gaps, and I just -- I'm a consumer now, so is there anything to that? I don't know, but the bottom line is that I'm asking those questions. I've already asked those questions. I've said, "Where are these places? I mean, I'm driving up and down Chestnut and Walnut and Spruce, looking for the right kind of things -- do students use cleaners? I mean, what do you do?...
DP: Where do you live? CS: I live in the Left Bank right now.... But you're the focus, and then, you know, I'll be honest with you. I'm asking the questions because I don't know... but I mean, what about these things where you live? I mean, does the Gap give you everything you need? Are there other businesses that you need that have come in here? Does anybody ask you? I mean I'm learning from you right now -- is anyone asking you these kinds of questions? Do they come up in surveys? Do you have a poll?... Because, I mean, you're telling me right now things that I have not had a chance to -- I mean I'm -- the people I work with are over 40, okay? There may be a couple of them in their thirties, all right, but the bottom line is, they see the world differently, and I'm not so sure that that is going to be the answer on different things. Some of it will be, because, again, some of them are alumni, and alumni are, sometimes, over 40. But the bottom line is that there is a balance, and that's what I'm looking at. The strategic plan that I've seen today doesn't address the things that I'm talking about right now, and those specifically are questions. All I've seen are capital plan instincts. In other words, they just say, "These are the buildings we want, for this, this, and this," and they just sort of have it all laid out. "Here are the financial figures that go along with this, this, and this, and that's it, and we can afford this or we can't afford this." And that's what I've seen. I've seen no logic that goes behind anything. All I've seen are facts and figures, and instincts. That's it. No logic, no rationale. That's it, you know, and that's not the way I'm used to doing business. Usually -- and that's what I mean by I'm coming from maybe a little different background -- I see something, I kind of look at it, I say, "Okay, here it is. Okay, show me the rationale. What's this all about? What do you base this upon? I mean, is there some type of polling data?" I mean, it's just kind of the way I am. But that's what I'm trying to do here.
DP: With the economy in a recession, crime is likely to go up. What precautionary measures is Penn taking to keep crime down on campus? CS: I hope so. I hope Public Safety has talked about that. I really think that what you're asking me is a $100 million question, particularly in view of my background dealing in defense issues and things like that. They have to think about that. They have to think about the what if. They have to plan, and that's really important. And I would hope that in their planning and thinking that they would be overly sensitive to the issue. When you listen and put things in balance in terms of wherever you are... but I would hope that they're savant. I mean, they really are focused on this issue. Is it a reasonable concern? Sure. It's a lot better than it used to be. I have visited before. We'd like a perfect environment -- no crime. But I haven't seen a day yet that has gone by without something happening, whether it's just petty, somebody stealing something from somebody or things like that. There are a lot of students here, a lot of people here, but we're right on the fringes of, you know... I mean, I'm giving you, you know... this is where we are. So I'm glad we're thinking that way, and I hope we continue to think that way. At the same time, I think we have to be ambassadors, and I think they know that, too, and do, again, everything that we do with balance and everybody doing their jobs. It's a very difficult job.
DP: What are your thoughts on the job that John Fry did? CS: I don't really talk about my predecessors too much, especially when I don't know them. I don't really know John Fry. From what I hear, I hear he did a great job and it was a time-related thing -- in other words, there was a time he was here that was really, really important for where Penn is, and then President Rodin made a decision, and I guess the Board of Trustees, that they wanted to go in a little different direction, continuing to march on the things they did in the past to capitalize on them, but at the same time build a little bit different kind of infrastructure. I have similar visions in terms of infrastructure, but also would like to continue to build on the success that we've had. I spoke with John Fry about three times. He called me once to congratulate me. That was when we first met, by the telephone, and we've talked a couple of times since then. He's been pretty busy, and now he's going to be even busier, because now he's on the transition team. I hope to meet him some day, though. I really do. I look forward to it.
DP: When Trammell Crow was hired in 1998, outsourcing was hailed as the new way for universities to do business. Now, Penn has hired three separate firms to manage off-campus real estate. Do you feel that outsourcing is still the way Penn should be handling construction projects? CS: Yeah, I mean, in general, I've worked with some outsourcing before. I mean, outsourcing works when it's the right thing to do. I know that sounds like a political answer, but it's true. When you look at what you have -- and I don't have those assets internally, so it's actually going to cost me more money to do this, or I could outsource it and probably do it a little bit not only cheaper, but efficiently or more efficiently, outsourcing is probably the way to go. You also have a... if I did it internally, a lot of times, then that would just help me make my decision on outsourcing. I'd have to have an administrative office. I'd have to have somebody to supervise this part. I'd have to have somebody to do the actual task itself, whereas with outsourcing, all I would have to do is just the task itself, and they would handle all the overheads and administrative offices and things like that.... I don't know any of the details regarding Trammell Crow. I mean, I've heard of them. I don't even know if it's three or four people that we've outsourced with. The bottom line is that I know there's some outsourcing going on, and I think right now that it was the right thing to do based upon the kind of rationale I just gave you. Even right now in the military, they are making a big push for outsourcing. Where we were, we outsourced some things. We outsourced, believe it or not, dining. We outsourced some areas of utilities because it was smarter to do than do it ourselves. So I can see some balance there, and we need serious cost analysis to help us support these decisions. I know those areas. I don't know what we did here.
DP: Penn has significantly increased its retail dining options in recent years, and some have said this conflicts with the mission of Dining Services. What do you view as dining's role at a campus like Penn? CS: I don't have a clue about what the current structure is right now. Not a clue. I am going to be eating at the dining facilities here real soon. I would call that ASAP -- as soon as possible. So I'm going to be doing that. I do feel, like I said initially, though, that dining should be serving you, and you should be as happy as you potentially can be as a group. We're not going to please everybody. There's no way to do that, considering people's different tastes, things like that. Nutritious, yes, but at the same time, that's where that retail question comes in in terms of having available sources and things like that, so that you have some opportunities to replace some of the places. A lot of people go to the stands... the food carts. I mean, I see a lot of people lined up.... How do I make that appear to be the same kind of a University plan? Maybe I can work that into the plan. I don't know what the answer is, but I just want to make sure we cater toward the student needs and make sure it's healthy in the long term. And I may not like all of that either, because we may find out that there are some challenges with food carts that they may not want to embrace. I don't know. So I'm looking at it, but I don't know enough yet.
