University of Pennsylvania Carey Law School professor Amy Wax discussed her relationship with Penn and her history of controversial statements in a interview with 1973 College graduate David Schein last Tuesday.
The May 20 interview — as part of Schein's “Saving America” podcast series — covered Wax's fraught affiliation with Penn, including years of disciplinary proceedings and the University's sanctions against her. During the episode, Schein asked Wax about several of her racist remarks against Asian and Black Americans, which have sparked nationwide attention and led many to question her position as a tenured Penn professor.
"The term racist is used very prolifically and very promiscuously in the current atmosphere, it's thrown around as a weapon," Wax told Schein. "My view of it is that the word is ill-defined … I think it is a fertile ground for abuse and misuse, and I've been called it so much that it's kind of lost its sting. The racism label is something that just doesn't keep me up at night.”
Following a question from Schein regarding Wax's views on admission processes at universities, Wax recalled a conversation with Brown University professor Glenn Lowry in which she discussed "some of the downsides of affirmative action."
"I didn't sit there saying, 'oh, it's all bad,'" Wax said. "There's arguments to be made on both sides. One of the downsides … is that they struggle to do well academically, that's just kind of what you would expect. The mismatch effect … is that if you are overplaced, not only will you do relatively poorly, but you'll actually learn less."
Schein then shifted the conversation to Wax's comments on "Asians in America participating as Democrats rather than Republicans," which he described as a "very innocent statement."
"I said … we're better off with fewer Asians as long as they're voting for Democrats because they're going to push the country, I think, in the wrong direction," Wax said. “The sound bite was lifted out of a much more complicated discussion — like I was some kind of bigot, like I hate Asians."
She emphasized that her comments were in reference to her belief in "the core Republican values."
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“I’m thinking more generally about the direction of our country, about which party I think should be in control, and also my general pension for immigration restriction," Wax said. "I am very much an immigration restrictionist, especially from non-Western countries. You put it all together and you get a little sound bite … to prove that I am an evil person.”
Schein also asked Wax about the "firestorm" at Penn, noting the University's decision to uphold sanctions against her in September 2024. Initially recommended during a Faculty Senate hearing board, the sanctions included a one-year suspension at half pay, the removal of her named chair, and a requirement for Wax to note in public appearances that she is not speaking on behalf of or as a member of Penn Carey Law.
Wax added that the penalties ensured she received "no more summer money ever" and said her total financial loss amounted to "almost half a million dollars" if she were to continue to teach for another decade.
“As part of the negotiations, they were willing to let up on that a little bit, but the core of the financial penalty was still there,” Wax said. The University attempted to negotiate the case for her "silence" — including through an offer of $50,000, which she called "chicken feed."
Wax said the most "outrageous and dishonorable" aspect of the negotiation process was the University's demand that she sign a clause to never speak about the case Penn had brought against her, including "the hearing, the proceedings, [and] the lack of due process."
She told Schein that Penn was "trying to escape accountability."
Wax's history of discriminatory statements includes her claim that Black students never graduate at the top of the Penn Carey Law class and that “non-Western groups” are resentful towards “Western people.” Wax has also faced criticism for hosting white nationalist Jared Taylor for a guest lecture and allegedly telling a Penn Carey Law student that she was only accepted into the Ivy League “because of affirmative action.”
In June 2022, former Penn Carey Law Dean Ted Ruger filed a complaint to the Faculty Senate recommending a “major sanction” against Wax. At the time, he cited numerous student and faculty accounts of Wax's conduct that he believed warranted disciplinary action. Ruger asked the Faculty Senate to appoint a hearing board of five professors from across the University to evaluate his complaint, conduct a full review of Wax's conduct, and impose sanctions in line with Penn's policy for punishing tenured faculty members.
“An academic institution should be all about intellectual rigor, intellectual honesty, [and] accountability," Wax told Schein. "If you're going to do something to a professor, get out there and defend it in an honest way, explain it. Don't hide behind … confidentiality. Confidentiality is supposed to protect me, not them.”
